BV's opinion

[Black Viper]

For the folks who are interested in the platform or setting up a webserver; just Nike it (er.. do it). VMs are really the way to go for learning too. VMware may be a better choice due to bridging the virtual NIC rather than Virtualbox's NAT only networking. If your mucking with a server isntall, you want to be able to hit it from a second IP.

Been using VM's for years. I could not do my service configs without them. With 37 VM's using VMware as well as virtual PC hosting this web site that you are reading... it could not be done without it. Snapshots/rollbacks and easy backup/transfer to different host hardware, it is the only way to "just do it".

[neon samurai]

I couldn't live without VMs now either. (if only I could smooth out the few bugs in my VMware Server 2 on Debian 64bit.. I'm told it runs perfectly so the issue must be on my side; SSL connecting to the manager is broken with a 10 to 15 minute pause during daemon shutdown). Anyhow, this was a rather old thread I jumped into so best let it go dormant again. Recognizing distributions rather than the kernel is one of those topics for me though.

Baud bless you for the service lists. I wish I'd found the site years sooner than I finally did. I'm sure it's invaluable information for many admins.

[BennyLava]

I like the look of the new Kubuntu. However, as a lifelong Windows user, I hate me some command line lol. I want everything to just be a little package that you double click and it installs itself, just like with windows. I think it's cause the whole command line thing was a little before my time. I don't have a problem with using Kubuntu all day long for simple web browsing, emailing, listening to music, and all that. But 1. I always end up straying out away from all that and 2. I want to play me some games. I love to play all the new titles, and all my old favorites. So I just stick with ol microsoft. Now if Linux ever gets into the gaming scene, that may change...

[neon samurai]

Most regular user distros work that way. With Kubuntu, I would expect you be able to download an ubuntu .deb file to your desktop, doubleclick it, enter your root password and have it installed. Debian and Mandriva are both like this with KDE and GNOME if not other desktops.

The add/remove programs for Kubuntu should be deadsimple to use too though. Why go to obscure websites for an install file when you can simply search the entire *buntu library of available packages from a handy utility application. It's pretty much the same thing as Windows Update but with all available software instead of only one companies products.

[BennyLava]

All available software? I could probly deal with using Kubuntu daily for almost everything, and just gaming on windows... except for what the other members mentioned. Eventually, you always end up back at the command line. I know all you linux lovers love the command line, but I would like to see it go away and be replaced with a more windows-like approach. Not saying get rid of it, keep it. But make it completely optional like in windows. Make absolutely everything be able to be done by GUI.

[BennyLava]

Dang, still can't edit posts. I wanted to add that if they did make absolutely everything be able to be done easily by GUI, (and no command line needed for anything) then yeah I would probly just switch to kubuntu and never look back. Just dual boot a bare bones stripped down (services) version of windows, that was only able to play games and connect to the web. (for MMO games and updates)

[neon samurai]

Benlava, it's not really as clear cut as "Linux" inevitably requires the command line. I'm not personally sure how Ubuntu is as I prefer to stick with it's parent distribution Debian. If your going by what others in this thread have said, it was an old and dormant discussion before I joined in. Much has changed since. Look at Linux Mint as a good example that's unlikely to send you to the command line.

"All available software".

I should clarify that it's all software within a distribution. Think Iphone and the app store; your local device with a minimal OS install and access to a large library of additional packages. One can be confident that the apps installed this way have been vetted by the app store and work on the device. Android, Palm's WebOS, Nokia's Maemo; they all work like this though with no price per package downloaded. Like desktop/server distributions, they have different amounts of optional packages available. For example, Debian has some 100,000 packages or more available and the *buntus repositories will be pretty big also. Other distributions will provide the common programs but not such an expansive list of options depending on how many people are maintaining the repository packages. (Encase "all software" is mistaken for All software available for any distribution)

If you are curious, you can't go wrong using a VM to get used to Mint or Kubuntu GUI only applications. You might find that the command line is not such a concern if you eventually find a reason to make use of it. Worry about hardware related things later should you find a distribution you really like. LiveCD are a brilliant way to play around also as you can try the various distributions against your live hardware without harming the hard drive installed OS.

My setup is the same as what your thinking. I'm primarily booted into my prefered distribution which provides all the programs I've needed thus far. For gaming, I have the Windows boot nice and stripped down and tuned to the specific game I'm playing through at the time. Outside of gaming, I like Cain&Abel for it's uses which also justifies my Windows boot and a Windows VM to run guest under my primary OS.

Between power, speed and efficiency there really is no comparison to the command line or terminal programs like Vim or Emacs though either. You wouldn't be wasting your time if you did choose to become more familiar with it. I'd quickly exceed the maximum length for several posts if I tried to list all the times that ten seconds at a command prompt have trumped the GUI way of doing something including many Windows cases. I mean that as an edorsement though not a jab of any kind.

[BennyLava]

Thanks for the explanation. The reason I prefer Kubuntu, is that it has that very up to date. Look. You know, like when you first saw a machine running vista aero. Do "Mint" and "Debian" have that look yet?

[neon samurai]

KDE4 has that very new and up to date look to it. It's original reception was much like Vista's; pretty but why? KDE4 will continue to mature though. I'm not sure if Mint uses it but I believe Kubuntu does and Mandriva has since version 2009.0. The nice thing is that once your more comfortable with the platform, it's fairly easy to change the GUI desktop. I could uninstall KDE and replace it with GNOME, Enlightenment, XFCE, Nextstep or a laundry list of other window managers and desktop environments. In the beginning it's better to find a distribution with defaults you like. For example, I wouldn't install Ubuntu then replace the default Gnome with KDE; I'd simply install Kubuntu with default KDE.

ELive
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=elive
(if pretty is what your after Enlightenment GUI is hard to beat)

Mint
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint
(good solid and pretty distribution)

Kubuntu
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kubuntu
Ubuntu
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu
(default KDE or default GNOME GUI respectively)

Mandriva
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=Mandriva
(the original ease of use new user distro)

PCLinuxOS
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pclinuxos
(deb packages and apt-get like Kubuntu, draketools "control panel" from Mandriva)

Debian
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=Debian
(one of the grandaddy distributions and close to the largest repositories available but GNOME by default and KDE3)

Debian 5 is the current version. The software versions are not the latest and Debian 6 will bring KDE4 along with other newer versions (est mid to late 2010 maybe?). Basically, if one isn't going to use BSD for a server, they tend to use Debian and with good reason.

Debian is my preference due to it's stability, attention to security and my being a fork snob; I prefer the parent distribution unless there is a clear reason for me to use the fork distribution. I have no personal clear reason to use a *buntu forked from Debian but in the past I had clear reasons for using the forked Mandriva instead of parent Red Hat distribution.

Each distribution has different project goals just like each different type of vehicle has targeted uses. Ubuntu; new user use and latest software. Mandriva; ease of use and almost latest software versions. Debian; stability and security instead of latest versions.

http://distrowatch.com
The site that lists and reviews distributions. Don't let the number of available distributions intimidate you. The major new user distributions are listed above.

[BennyLava]

Each distribution has different project goals just like each different type of vehicle has targeted uses. Ubuntu; new user use and latest software. Mandriva; ease of use and almost latest software versions. Debian; stability and security instead of latest versions.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain to a noob. What do you think that the project goal of kubuntu is? It's maybe a little different from Ubuntu? As for why on the aero... I know it's a resource hog, but I have to share the same opinion of BV on this one. It's just nice to have something that looks so pretty. Then again I consider myself to be a fairly hardcore gamer, so things looking pretty are one of my primary goals lol. I probly spend way too much money on it heh.

But what I would really love to find is, a sort of project based workbook on Ubuntu/kubuntu. Or debian if they are all similar enough. An example of this might be my vista class book from school. I had to buy this overpriced book, that had all manner of little projects to work through in vista. That book could pretty much teach a new user how to run vista with a fair degree of fluency. Do you know of a book like this for Kubuntu/Ubuntu, or debain? Also, are they close enough to each other, that if you learned one then you would be pretty good at using the others? Is mint pretty close to the same as debian, and is debian the same as ubuntu?

[neon samurai]

Kubuntu is Ubuntu defaulting to KDE instead of Gnome desktop environment. The project goals are the same as far as I know; easy of use Linux distribution for anyone starting from first time user on up. Or as the marketing slogan suggests "Linux for human beings". In terms of Aero, Windows seems to provide a window manager base (what you see if you disable Aero) which would be equivalent to KDE or Gnome. When you enable Aero, it turns on the extra layer over the base resulting in the semi-transparency and other GPU supported effects. On the other side, that same 3D layer on top is provided by Compiz. If you see a screenshot of someone's desktops mapped to a nifty 3D cube; that's Compiz in action. I believe it's a standard part of the Ubuntu/Kubuntu distributions. KDE4 also provides the graphic goodness though internally rather than with the Compiz addon layer.

For books, you should be able to find Ubuntu Unleased or several similar books. O'rielly is kind of the defacto *nix related publisher including books like Linux In A Nutshell, Administrating Linux and such. Your local Chapters or Barns&Noble type book stores should have some selection on the computer books shelf. I'd take an hour to skim through a few until you find one that hits the mark for you. You could even start with a skim through Linux for Dummies (the * for Dummies seem to be very good introductory books in general).

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Ubuntu-Linux-Fourth-Thomas/dp/1430219998/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1265568331&sr=8-9

http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-Linux-Complete-Edition-8-04/dp/B0018KAN9E/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1265568331&sr=8-6
something like this though you may want to see if there's a set for the newer Ubuntu versions. The differences between Ubuntu and Kubuntu shouldn't be very noticable; it's two flavours from the same company.

http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Nutshell-Ellen-Siever/dp/0596154488/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265568331&sr=8-5
A great reference book for general use but may not be your clearest introduction.

http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Dummies-9th-Richard-Blum/dp/0470467010/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265568331&sr=8-7

The real secret is to think of Linux as only a kernel that happens to be used in several distributions. The distribution is the product in the same way one buys and refers to WindowsXP rather than always refering to the NT kernel it happens to be wrapped around. Distributions based on the Linux kernel are all seporate platforms that happen to be extremely similar and highly interoperable. I wouldn't suggest trying to install a .rpm package (from Red Hat or Mandriva) on a .deb package based distribution (Debian, Ubuntu/Kubuntu) but once installed, SSH will behave the same on both and won't care what the remote OS is provided it has SSH also. (Even osX integrates into my primarily Debian home network since they both include SSH)

If you don't mind the lack of pictures, I'd also suggest the following:

http://www.linux.com/learn
http://www.linux.com/learn/new-user-guides

http://www.debian.org/doc/
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/

The debian manual will include much that applies to Ubuntu/Kubuntu (parent and child distros after all). It will also have much that applies to Mandriva (not related to Debian by birth) but the debian specific defaults may not be the same as Mandrivas and the apt-get details won't apply to Mandriva's urpmi package manager.

[BennyLava]

Thanks. Yeah I was looking for a project based book with lots of pictures heh. From the links you posted, it seems like I can probly find one.

So is the command line the same for any linux distro? From red hat to mint to debian? That way at least once you learned it, you'd be in like flyn. Or however the saying goes.

Also, when is the core "linux" updated? You say that the distros are all just like a shell around the core. But when when does the core get updated? Very often?

[Black Viper]

Linux is updated all the time.
The "command line" is just that. A method to execute commands based upon applications using that method.

[DJanda]

So is the command line the same for any linux distro? From red hat to mint to debian? That way at least once you learned it, you'd be in like flyn. Or however the saying goes.

Also, when is the core "linux" updated? You say that the distros are all just like a shell around the core. But when when does the core get updated? Very often?

The commands used at the command line are the same for all distros of Linux. They are primarily the commands used for Unix (Linux is an updated version of the last "open-source" Unix ported to the PC). So... Learn the commands once and you have it all  A new command may occasionally creep in to access some new feature, but I don't even know about the last time that happened (I probably didn't read the "Read Me" with the distro) 

Linux is updated all the time.

True, but those updates are only used on local systems. They are then submitted to the Linux Consortium and if approved then become available to the general public as part of the next kernel -- New kernels don't happen very often.

Also, there is no need to upgrade your present Linux just because a new kernel is available. Unlike Windows, you don't need to worry about support from the Linux Community or from the supplier of your "distro." Linux is extremely stable and there are still cases of old (20 years or so) distros still doing their job on a daily basis. You only get a distro of a new kernel if you see that it can supply some performance that you are currently lacking and feel a need for. Other than that, pick a distro, load it up and then forget about the constant "update" cycle you have unfortunately had to get used to with Windows. ------ End of screed 

The above said updates come about because some Linux users want to do something with Linux that hasn't been done before. Since Linux is "open-source" they have access to the software itself and can then program in the desired feature and recompile their own kernel. If they think the feature may be useful to the general public, they submit their brainchild to the consortium.

[neon samurai]

I can't really add much to what BV and TLH have already said but I will offer a Debian based example. As mentioned, Debian focuses on stability and security first and formost. Debian 5 "Lenny" is also refered to as Debian Stable because it's the current version meant for production use. Debian 6 "Squeeze" is also refered to as Debian Testing; the next version currently in assembly and testing.

Stable may not have the latest version numbers for software but updates are well tested and available when ready rather than on a set marketing schedule (say.. every second tuesday'ish). In the year and a half or so to two years that Debian 5 has been the production ready version, there have been four new kernels placing the Linux-Image package at version 5.0.4. Most updates can be applied without rebooting but a kernel update remains the one special case; download update, reboot; if breakage then reboot with older version kernel else stay with new kernel and uninstall older kernel.

In my case, I prefer to log into a text terminal a-la oldschool Unix like and "startx" the GUI interface if needed. When I log in for the first time each day, my habit is to run a "aptitude update && aptitude full-upgrade" before getting on with my work in the text terminal or loading the graphic desktop. This is actually two commands chained together. The first checks the repositories for any changes in the list of packages available. If that is successful (the "&&") then I get a list of updated packages and a prompt asking if I wish to download and install them. This updates all packages available based on what I have installed. Kernel, dependency, GUI desktop component, user application; all updates without visiting separate update utilities and websites.

I believe the current Ubuntu/Kubuntu versions are based on Debian Testing with Cononical doing some code work and patching within there own distribution. Those patches may or may not be passed back up to Debian and included into it's Stable, Testing or unstable branches.

Like everything else, the quality and frequency of updates can vary form distribution to distribution. I've seen a badly done update break Mandriva but have not yet experienced a break due to a Debian update. There was an issue in 2008 where a Debian package maintainer put out a bad update for OpenSSL/OpenSSH but this was due to not following the distributions policies rather than due to the distribution itself or FOSS development model.

(hopefully this adds to the other two posts rather than causing further confusion)